If there is a God, why is there evil?

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
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philosopher19
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by philosopher19 »

Omnibenevolance is often defined as all-loving or infinitely good. If this contributes to Existence/God existing perfectly, then it is a necessary trait. If not, then it's irrelevant to the definition of true perfection.

Let's be rational ahead of being emotional. With that in mind, consider the following:

The problem of evil is cited as being irreconcilable with Existence/God being perfect. Let's break down why this happens and then assess whether it's a meaningful argument or not. 

I will start with the outline or conclusion: God being perfect and doing perfectly is something that is known via pure reason. How it does perfectly is something that pure reason dictates to be unknown to us because we lack omniscience. Essentially this means:

For there to be a counter argument to God doing perfectly, there'd have to be an objective instance of something not existing as maximally well as it can exist. For us to establish an objective instance of something existing not as maximally well as it can exist, we'd have to have full knowledge of it and its world and everything that relates to it including its future. Everything in Existence is connected or related in some way. So ultimately, we'd require omniscience to establish an objective instance of something not existing as maximally well as it can exist.

Simply put: 1) omniscience is required to know if something is not existing as well as it can do, and 2) no being can become omniscient from a non-omniscient state. Therefore 3) We as non-omniscient beings can never rationally establish an instance of something not existing as well as it can exist. It would be paradoxical. Since 3 is taken for granted and empiricism is paradoxically treated as such that it can override that which is known apriori, I will address 3 in more detail.

It is paradoxical to say something like P: All things considered, it is hypothetically impossible for Q to amount to a maximally good outcome.

Here's why:

Can P be demonstrated without omniscience? No. We lack omniscience which means we cannot consider all things. Can we ever become omniscient? No. Therefore P is clearly absurd. It's not even an unknown where we'd be able to say something like perhaps one day we'll be in a position where we can demonstrate P. We will never be able to demonstrate P and where we might have thought we did, we were clearly being irrational.
Belindi
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by Belindi »

Evil is an evaluation by humans. Other animals, although they suffer, don't think about evil. Presumably if 'God' is equivalent to absolute good then 'God' includes human conceptions and feelings of evil all wrapped up within absolute good. It is not up to God-believers to understand God's sort of goodness.
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chewybrian
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by chewybrian »

The original question assumes there is the capacity for evil, which in a sense assumes there is a God. You might say:
If there is evil, then there is a God.
If we lived in a deterministic universe, where everything including our will was fully governed by the laws of physics, then there would be no good or evil by definition. Nobody could do otherwise than what past events determined they would do. Yet, if we are honest, we all have to say we could have done otherwise in any given situation.

If we can choose good or evil (I believe we can), then we transcend the rules that govern inert matter or energy. It almost requires the action of God to break the rules in our favor. The stoics said the faculty of reason was a bit of God dwelling within each of us, and this makes sense.

I can't go beyond this observation to say what it might imply for us. I can't say what type of God there might be if there is one, and what rules might apply to us as a result. It only leaves the door open for God. If you can choose, you can defy the laws of physics, and something special is going on within you. It is reasonable, if you unlock your mind from the 'laws' which you have imposed upon it, to say that God might be the cause.
"If determinism holds, then past events have conspired to cause me to hold this view--it is out of my control. Either I am right about free will, or it is not my fault that I am wrong."
Wayne92587
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by Wayne92587 »

Evil is a human trait; neither Mother nature nor God has knowledge of, nor can be judged to be Good and Evil.

The Knowledge of Good and Evil, Guilefulness, is the cause of all that is Evil.
Eve was beguiled and so she did eat of the Tree of Knowledge, Eve mistakenly determining said Fruit to be Good, partook thereof.

Only Knowledge and the effect thereof, Absolutely Bad Knowledge can be judged, to be Good or Evil.

Absolutely Bad Knowledge, has a duel quality, has two qualities, is the knowledge of good and Evil.

Absolutely Bad Knowledge, mistaken to be Absolutely Good results in guilefulness, is the cause of all that is Evil.

Good can, does, exist without Evil.
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h_k_s
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by h_k_s »

Floyd wrote: February 27th, 2007, 10:30 am If there is a God, why is there evil? Why do bad things happen to good people? Why is there so much needless suffering in the world, from natural disasters and such? Why would a loving God do this?
The existence of evil is in no way a contradiction of the philosophical question about the existence of God(s).

It simply means that God(s) allow(s) evil to exist.

And disasters are a totally separate matter from evil.

Disasters happen because the Earth is a dangerous place.

Fortunately there are so many people on the Earth, billions of people, that losing a few hundred thousand of them, or even a few millions as the case may be, means nothing in the grand scheme of things. These poor departed souls are not missed by the Earth nor by the societies upon it.

I have to laugh at the atheists' if-then arguments. They are quite juvenile and laughably absurd.

They pale in comparison to Aquinas' exquisite arguments for the existence of God(s).
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h_k_s
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by h_k_s »

Wayne92587 wrote: April 21st, 2019, 5:58 pm Evil is a human trait; neither Mother nature nor God has knowledge of, nor can be judged to be Good and Evil.

The Knowledge of Good and Evil, Guilefulness, is the cause of all that is Evil.
Eve was beguiled and so she did eat of the Tree of Knowledge, Eve mistakenly determining said Fruit to be Good, partook thereof.

Only Knowledge and the effect thereof, Absolutely Bad Knowledge can be judged, to be Good or Evil.

Absolutely Bad Knowledge, has a duel quality, has two qualities, is the knowledge of good and Evil.

Absolutely Bad Knowledge, mistaken to be Absolutely Good results in guilefulness, is the cause of all that is Evil.

Good can, does, exist without Evil.
Rene Descartes is the only philosopher that I know of who worked out a sophisticated and formal proof that God cannot be an Evil Genius. Ergo as best as we can tell, God is NOT an Evil Genius.

God is simply God. Or God(s).
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hc101
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by hc101 »

The human mind is too weak to fully comprehend the universe and the existence of God. In order to easily explain our existence and other things, we have created a certain image of God in our minds.
A God to whom we pray to and worship. We believe that he listens to our prayers, fulfills our wishes and helps us in times of need.

I believe that this human interpretation of God is wrong.

Praying and worshipping simply exist to provide peace to the human mind as well as hope during dark times.
There is no God ready to help us. There simply exists a superpower due to which we were created.

If there were a God like the one in human minds, a God who listened to prayers and helped us... Why would he let his children slaughter each other? Why would he let his children commit atrocious crimes against each other? Why would he watch his children starve? Why would there be evil in the world?

Therefore, it can be concluded that the image of God in our minds, contains several faults. There is no relation between God and evil. We are the ones who have created evil.
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LuckyR
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by LuckyR »

hc101 wrote: August 21st, 2019, 11:40 am The human mind is too weak to fully comprehend the universe and the existence of God. In order to easily explain our existence and other things, we have created a certain image of God in our minds.
A God to whom we pray to and worship. We believe that he listens to our prayers, fulfills our wishes and helps us in times of need.

I believe that this human interpretation of God is wrong.

Praying and worshipping simply exist to provide peace to the human mind as well as hope during dark times.
There is no God ready to help us. There simply exists a superpower due to which we were created.

If there were a God like the one in human minds, a God who listened to prayers and helped us... Why would he let his children slaughter each other? Why would he let his children commit atrocious crimes against each other? Why would he watch his children starve? Why would there be evil in the world?

Therefore, it can be concluded that the image of God in our minds, contains several faults. There is no relation between God and evil. We are the ones who have created evil.
The truth of your red statement, cuts both ways, that is, you can't prove the rest of your theory any more than the religious can. However IMO your analysis is vastly superior to theirs, though we are all guessing.
"As usual... it depends."
Belindi
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by Belindi »

hc101 wrote: August 21st, 2019, 11:40 am The human mind is too weak to fully comprehend the universe and the existence of God. In order to easily explain our existence and other things, we have created a certain image of God in our minds.
A God to whom we pray to and worship. We believe that he listens to our prayers, fulfills our wishes and helps us in times of need.

I believe that this human interpretation of God is wrong.

Praying and worshipping simply exist to provide peace to the human mind as well as hope during dark times.
There is no God ready to help us. There simply exists a superpower due to which we were created.

If there were a God like the one in human minds, a God who listened to prayers and helped us... Why would he let his children slaughter each other? Why would he let his children commit atrocious crimes against each other? Why would he watch his children starve? Why would there be evil in the world?

Therefore, it can be concluded that the image of God in our minds, contains several faults. There is no relation between God and evil. We are the ones who have created evil.
God- believers have never solved the problem of evil. The best they can say is "God's ways are mysterious".
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LuckyR
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by LuckyR »

Belindi wrote: August 23rd, 2019, 6:20 am
hc101 wrote: August 21st, 2019, 11:40 am The human mind is too weak to fully comprehend the universe and the existence of God. In order to easily explain our existence and other things, we have created a certain image of God in our minds.
A God to whom we pray to and worship. We believe that he listens to our prayers, fulfills our wishes and helps us in times of need.

I believe that this human interpretation of God is wrong.

Praying and worshipping simply exist to provide peace to the human mind as well as hope during dark times.
There is no God ready to help us. There simply exists a superpower due to which we were created.

If there were a God like the one in human minds, a God who listened to prayers and helped us... Why would he let his children slaughter each other? Why would he let his children commit atrocious crimes against each other? Why would he watch his children starve? Why would there be evil in the world?

Therefore, it can be concluded that the image of God in our minds, contains several faults. There is no relation between God and evil. We are the ones who have created evil.
God- believers have never solved the problem of evil. The best they can say is "God's ways are mysterious".
Which conveniently answers every conceivable god question.
"As usual... it depends."
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Sculptor1
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by Sculptor1 »

God does not exist.
Only Satan exists.
Satan makes the world evil so that no matter what you do in life you will die, most often in pain and desperation.
But if everything was evil, there would be no reflecting on your desperation.
So Satan created good, to give you some hope and some idea of what life could be.
In this way, when Satan hits you with a disaster, such as illness, or the death of a loved one, you have a great contrast from those short moments of goodness, so that you feel really desolate and have a greater sense of loss and depression.

So in a world of evil, a little good can make you feel really bad, else you'd never know what is missing.
aveenire
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by aveenire »

Well, yeah, even animals can think and they often outsmart humans with less language. I get where you're coming from. So is religion also a language?
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LuckyR
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by LuckyR »

Sculptor1 wrote: August 23rd, 2019, 7:35 pm God does not exist.
Only Satan exists.
Satan makes the world evil so that no matter what you do in life you will die, most often in pain and desperation.
But if everything was evil, there would be no reflecting on your desperation.
So Satan created good, to give you some hope and some idea of what life could be.
In this way, when Satan hits you with a disaster, such as illness, or the death of a loved one, you have a great contrast from those short moments of goodness, so that you feel really desolate and have a greater sense of loss and depression.

So in a world of evil, a little good can make you feel really bad, else you'd never know what is missing.
Interesting theory. However, in the absence of higher thought, say for the billions of years where the earth was inhabited by microbes, does the world need a god or a satan?
"As usual... it depends."
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Sculptor1
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by Sculptor1 »

LuckyR wrote: September 8th, 2019, 11:31 am
Sculptor1 wrote: August 23rd, 2019, 7:35 pm God does not exist.
Only Satan exists.
Satan makes the world evil so that no matter what you do in life you will die, most often in pain and desperation.
But if everything was evil, there would be no reflecting on your desperation.
So Satan created good, to give you some hope and some idea of what life could be.
In this way, when Satan hits you with a disaster, such as illness, or the death of a loved one, you have a great contrast from those short moments of goodness, so that you feel really desolate and have a greater sense of loss and depression.

So in a world of evil, a little good can make you feel really bad, else you'd never know what is missing.
Interesting theory. However, in the absence of higher thought, say for the billions of years where the earth was inhabited by microbes, does the world need a god or a satan?
:headslap
Are you kidding?
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LuckyR
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by LuckyR »

Sculptor1 wrote: September 8th, 2019, 5:10 pm
LuckyR wrote: September 8th, 2019, 11:31 am

Interesting theory. However, in the absence of higher thought, say for the billions of years where the earth was inhabited by microbes, does the world need a god or a satan?
:headslap
Are you kidding?
:thighslap
No. Deadly serious.
Was my question too difficult to answer?
"As usual... it depends."
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