Did the universe exist for ever or does it have a beginning?

[tommarcus]

I see your point. We are certainly like the two dimensional being trying to describe a three dimensional world. But unlike the two dimensional being, we exist in all of the dimensions of existence otherwise could not exist in this entire world. We must use the three dimensional tools that we have but not be limited by them. This requires a new way of thinking which is consistent with all of our dimensions not just the physical but it does not necessarily imply that everything we have developed is worthless.

[Wayne92587]

Rhetorical questions do not require literal answers.

How am I supposed to know that you meant your question to be a rhetorical question.

I totally missed the pun that Greta is talking about, I am not of that persuasion. I do not think that way.

[Wayne92587]

Greta wrote;

It's interesting that you mention black holes, as they provide allot of insight into the sort of conditions we could expect at the dawn of time.

The next great leap in mathematical will require a system of reasoning which more closely mirrors the totality of existence and not just lower dimensions of it.

many thinkers posit a "prime mover", a deity (or whatever). However, that again begs the question about what came beforehand.

Prime Mover or not the Universe is a Creation born of Cause and Affect.

Not so!


The Reality of First Cause, the Un-Caused Cause not being the Prime Mover, not being the Creator.

The Creator being not the cause but the generator of the Un-caused Cause, an Affect that existed as the O/1, a Transcendental Singularity of Zero-0.

A Singularity of One-1 being the First Singularity of Zero-0 being reborn, converted, transfigured, that through a metamorphic process, was converted into a Singularity of One-1.

A Singularity so designated a Singularity of One-1, being the First in a Series, existing as the beginning of a process such as the Evolutionary Process, as the beginning of a continuum such as Space-Time.

A Singularity of One-1, the Reality of First Cause, the Un-Caused Cause, being an Affect, the second half of the process known to be Cause and Effect.

The First Singularity of Zero-0 being reborn a Singularity of One-1, being
un-caused, was not born of Cause and Effect, was an Affect, itself having no material, indirect, cause having, being a Spiritual cause, was the second half of the process known to be Cause and Effect.

An Affect, the un-caused cause, being The Reality of First cause, the material cause of the System of Chaos that made manifest Reality of the Heavens and the Earth.

The Source from which the First Random Infinitely Finite Indivisible Singularity having no relative, numerical value, having a numerical value of Zero-0, resulting in the rebirth, a conversion of a Random Singularity of Zero-0, the morphing of, and into a Singularity of One-1;

The First Random Singularity having no relative, numerical value, having a numerical value of Zero-0 being reborn a Singularity of One-1, being converted into the Reality of First Cause.

The Reality of First Cause being an Affect, came into existence from of out of no-where, from out of the Nothingness of a Great Void, (appearing as if by Magic), magically appeared as the second half of the process known to be Cause and Effect.

As an Affect, the un-known Cause, the Reality of First Cause, being the indirect cause of a System of Cause an Effect (mistakenly coined the Big Bang), the result of, being born of an Omniscient State of Singularity.

Think of a Black Whole as being a Great Void, as being an Omniscient State of Singularity filled with a random number, quantity, of Singularities having no relative, numerical, value, having a numerical value of Zero-0, having no Mass, filled with Dark Matter.

Motion in the beginning was (having no displacement, no angular momentum, no velocity of speed and direction was) meaningless, immaterial, was not relevant to the existence of the omniscient State of Singularity, of a Black Whole, to existence prior to the beginning of the Creative Process, the Universe.

A Change in the Nature of Motion itself, bringing about the Affect that began the Creation of the Heavens and the Earth, the Universe, the Reality of Everything that exits in the material, physical sense of the Word.

The Omniscient State of Singularity having no relative, numerical value being filled with the Randomness of a untold number, quantity, of omnipresent Singularities of Zero-0, which by the way had no mass, being Pure Unadulterated Energy, Dark Energy.

The Energy of motion, of an omnipresent of a Random infinitely Infinite Indivisible Singularity off Singularity of Zero-0 having no relative numerical value, existed without displacement, having no angular momentum, no velocity of speed and direction.

Energy of motion having no mass existed as Pure Unadulterated Heat Energy, as the insignificant innate inner, Eternal motion of each Fully Random Singularity of Zero-0, as a Vibration, an Oscillation.

The next great leap in mathematical will require a system of reasoning which more closely mirrors the totality of existence and not just lower dimensions of it.

Try 0/1 as the mathematical equation that explains the Existence of Everything.

[Wayne92587]

Creation began with a Bump in the Night.

[Wayne92587]

tommarcus

We are certainly like the two dimensional being trying to describe a three dimensional world.

Space is not Flat, is not two Dimensional.

Man's World of Reality, is Three dimensional; Time, Space and Motion.

Time having one dimension, Space being one dimensional, having two natural dimensions and motion as a dimension, makes up Three Dimensional Space-Time.

In order to know that man exists or does not exist, Man must be measurable as to location and Momentum in Space-Time.

Man's Celestial World of Reality is Spherical in Nature.

Lord of the Ring, Keeper of the Holy Grail--->0

[Sy Borg]

Regardless as to how the universe began, if we postulate a finite beginning, something had to exist outside of the unuverse. If there was nothing then nothing itself had to exist, like the null set. That implies that existence itself existed. Existence itself is another dimension totally independent from the physics of our physical world. And that itself is our true starting point to describe our total existence.

What exactly are you referring to as "existence itself"? It seems like a way of saying that reality had no beginning but has always been.

So now we must describe what such an existence would be. First and foremost it would be totally unbounded. There is no material or time to limit it in any way or anything in it. Whatever may exist in this dimension is unbounded and without limit. If our bounded universe was created from this beginning then somehow boundaries would need to be created such as maximum speed and gravity. What appears as a big bang would actually have been a Bug Squeeze.

I like "Bug Squeeze" (although bugs may be less keen). If dark energy is as the boffins say then what's happening certainly would be an inhibition of it.

[tommarcus]

I didn't mean to imply that the world is two dimensional. The problem is the same if you are a three dimensional being trying to describe a four dimensional world.

Assuming that there are three dimensions, time, space and motion, how can motion be a separate dimension if it is defined as the change in space divided by the change in time?

[tommarcus]

Greta:

By "existence" I am referring to the dimension in which everything that exists must reside as well as the capacity to exist. So it is both the actual dimension and the law of that dimension.

For example, assume there existed a two dimensional world. That world would have two dimensions say vertical and horizontal. Also any object in that world would also have to be two dimensional and follow all of the rules associated with being two dimensional.

Existince is a dimension which everything that exists must have, otherwise it cannot exist. I believe this because I believe that the universe had a beginning. So when the universe did not exist there had to be pure existence itself. Even the creator, if you believe in one, had to have this dimension as part of his or her being and capacity otherwise, by definition, he or she would not exist either. Could there be other dimensions? Yes. But one way or another the ability to exist cannot just be taken for granted. It had to be somewhere.

Another way to look at it is that in order to write letters with chaulk, you have to have a blackboard to write on. Existence is the blackboard. We are fairly confident that the universe us expanding. But it can't expand into absolute nothingness because there is nothing to expand into. The universe would hit a wall. There must be something there for the universe to expand into. That would be the dimension of existence itself in which the physical world started and is expanding into.

Thanks for your question. It was a good one.

[Wayne92587]

tommacus;

how can motion be a separate dimension if it is defined as the change in space divided by the change in time?

Wayne wrote;

There no point in Time or in Space, where an entity is in motion.
Motion exists as a continuous series of point singularities where an entity exits in Space over an extended period of Time.

An Entity relative to the arrow of time is in motion as long as it exists.

[/quote]
Existence is a dimension which everything that exists must have, otherwise it cannot exist. I believe this because I believe that the universe had a beginning. So when the universe did not exist there had to be pure existence itself. Even the creator, if you believe in one, had to have this dimension as part of his or her being and capacity otherwise, by definition, he or she would not exist either. Could there be other dimensions? Yes. But one way or another the ability to exist cannot just be taken for granted. It had to be somewhere. [/quote]

You should have left a creator out of the premise; no creator had existence in the beginning, before the creation of the Universe.

A physical Universe did not exist in the beginning, nor did Space-Time, Time, Space or motion.

Existence before the Beginning existed as an omniscient State of Singularity, as a Transcendent Fully Random Quantum State of Singularity filled with an unspoken of number, quantity, of fully random, Omnipresent, Infinitely Finite Indivisible Singularities having no relative, numerical value, having a numerical value of Zero-0.

In the beginning only Darkness existed upon the Deep, the Reality of Everything being representative of a Black Whole, Dark Matter, Unadulterated Pure Energy, which by the way has no Mass.

Time, Space and Motion did exist prior to the beginning moment of Creation, each being relatively Flat, being without Dimension, each existing as a Singularity having no relative, numerical, value, having a numerical value of Zero-0.

Time in the Beginning existing as the Zero-0 Hour, Space existing as a Great Void-0; Motion existing as the Eternal, Everlasting insignificant innate, inner, motion, vibration, oscillation, as the Un-Caused meaningless Motion of a Singularity of Zero-0 alone in the Emptiness of Time and Space, existing as Pure Unadulterated Heat Energy.

It is this nothingness of Pure Energy that has been imagined to be God.

[Wayne92587]

It is this nothingness of Pure Energy that has been imagined to be God, that is pure Existence.

[Thinking critical]

Greta:

By "existence" I am referring to the dimension in which everything that exists must reside as well as the capacity to exist. So it is both the actual dimension and the law of that dimension.

For example, assume there existed a two dimensional world. That world would have two dimensions say vertical and horizontal. Also any object in that world would also have to be two dimensional and follow all of the rules associated with being two dimensional.

Existince is a dimension which everything that exists must have, otherwise it cannot exist. I believe this because I believe that the universe had a beginning. So when the universe did not exist there had to be pure existence itself. Even the creator, if you believe in one, had to have this dimension as part of his or her being and capacity otherwise, by definition, he or she would not exist either. Could there be other dimensions? Yes. But one way or another the ability to exist cannot just be taken for granted. It had to be somewhere.

Another way to look at it is that in order to write letters with chaulk, you have to have a blackboard to write on. Existence is the blackboard. We are fairly confident that the universe us expanding. But it can't expand into absolute nothingness because there is nothing to expand into. The universe would hit a wall. There must be something there for the universe to expand into. That would be the dimension of existence itself in which the physical world started and is expanding into.

Thanks for your question. It was a good one.

Existence can't logically be described as a dimension. Dimensions describe aspects or features of what can be said to already exist, such as space, time and motion. To call existence a dimension means that another higher state must exist in which the dimension of existence, exists, which leads to the logical fallacy of infinite regress.

Dimensions are necessary features for states of existence, in other words, something can't be said to exist unless it meets the criteria of being at a certain point of space at a certain time.

Therefore the Universe can logically expand for eternity, because the existence of the Universe is described by dimensions, so as it expands so to do all its dimensions which means it is fundamentally necessary that existence itself expands with it. The two are intrinsically contingent on each other, if dimensions of something exist, they necessarily exist, if there is zero dimension of anything, by definition nothing exists, including existence itself.

[Wayne92587]

Thinkingcrital;

if there is zero dimension of anything, by definition nothing exists, including existence itself.

No;

To say that Nothingness does or does not exist is meaningless simply because nothingness is not measurable, is Infinite.

I believe that prior to the beginning of Time (before Time Space and Motion became relative) at one First Time the only thing that existed was nothingness, was a Black Whole; there being only Darkness upon the Deep prior to Time, Space and Motion becoming relative, prior to Space-Time.

The Emptiness of Space also has dimension, Nothingness, the Great Void is something that exist but that has no mass, no measurable dimension.

The Existence of the Emptiness of Space, Nothingness as a dimension is boundless, infinite, exists as Great Void.

The Great Void as a Dimension is infinite, not measurable.



Emptiness being pure unadulterated Existsenc.

[Wayne92587]

Syednoorhussain;

[/quote]why did the universe wait an infinity to begin, and why at that particular moment.why did the universe wait an infinity to begin, and why at that particular moment.

The creation of the Universe was not intentional.

Creation was an accident that was wait to happen, and could have happened at any moment, point in Time and in Space.

[Wayne92587]

Prime Mover or not the Universe is a Creation born of Cause and Affect.

Correction on my statement above;
Creation is not born of the Reality of First Cause, began with the Reality of First Cause.

The Spirit the Passion of God is the Prime Mover, the seed of all Living Things, things that exist in the material sense of the word, even a rock.

The Spirit of God exists as the insignificant innate, inner motion of a Singularity having no relative, numerical value, having a numerical value of Zero-0, exists as a substance that has no mass.

This meaningless motion, the Singularity of Motion of pure unadulterated heat energy exists as a vibration, an oscillation, which by the way make a humming sound, “OHM!”

Ever hear of a Mexican jumping Bean.

Syednoorhussain

if there is zero dimension of anything, by definition nothing exists, including existence itself.

Thinkingcritcal [/quote]

if there is zero dimension of anything, by definition nothing exists, including existence itself. [/quote]


Eduk;
[/quote]
then to describe what exists beyond our physical universe requires a system of thought which is also beyond our universe [/quote]

True! That would be Consciousness, Rationalization.

[ThomasHobbes]

Prime Mover or not the Universe is a Creation born of Cause and Affect.

Correction on my statement above;
Creation is not born of the Reality of First Cause, began with the Reality of First Cause.

The Spirit the Passion of God is the Prime Mover,

You managed to clear away the mud of your first statement, replacing it with dirt.